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Miracles… are they the result of God or faith? Because a non-believer who doesn’t believe in Jesus can experience medical miracles in their lives because they believe they’ll be healed.
Placebo effect… believing you can overcome something.
How do you differentiate the two?
True… but… LEIFKJSDLKFSD
Case study — Cancer healing is unlikely to be the placebo effect.
We don’t have the right to tell someone whatever miracle they experience is the placebo effect since faith is a personal relationship with God therefore we do not have the right to judge.
Don’t rubbish the placebo effect since it can do insane stuff. Lecture with a doctor, having a patient… the patient was physiologically fine but then she was paralytic, couldn’t move, bed wetting and not making any sense. She thought something was going on.
Psychological effects can have massive physiological —
On cancer cells?
Your thoughts can cause a secretion of certain hormones and they can have a tremendous effect —
The fact that it makes no sense is the reason why we call it the placebo effect. It does stuff that we don’t understand… why does say me going to the doctor suddenly make my cough go away… not saying all human miracles would be
Would you say placebo effect is a miracle itself?
If a placebo effect is something unexplained as you understand, is it a theory or is it?
Do you think the placebo effect is a miracle?
UMMMMMMM If it’s true that the placebo effect cannot be explained by science, then we assume that it is some supernatural thing that’s happening?
You are defining it as a supernatural occurrence… for scientists we don’t know how it works but we will do.
Yeah what’s the definition of a miracle.
Oh yes you defined a miracle as something science cannot prove. That is factually incorrect science can only disprove something. Like the placebo effect.. like the fact that the galaxies don’t spin themselves apart, there’s plenty of stuff science can’t explain. If all the laws of physics were work to properly, then the galaxies wouldn’t exist, they would spin apart but they don’t. There’s something holding them together and it’s called dark matter. We don’t know what it is but we need to find it. There’s plenty of stuff science can’t explain but would you call that a miracle?
I’m not quite sure about the examples but possibly there are examples of miracles that people could have thought that they were miracles in the past and then science explained it later on. I think that science can explain the placebo effect because I’ve read a couple of papers not only on the placebo effect but on the no-placebo effect, which is vice vera and there are some ideas how hormones can act on your body and they just go by your thoughts – we don’t know how they come about but they do – but would you consider it a miracle if science explains it rather well why it happens.
I guess if you can explain scientifically about a miracle that we once thought was a miracle then it wouldn’t count.
Would it ever be a miracle then?
Depends how you define a miracle, I could even say that me coming to Christ is in itself a miracle… but ummm
Is a miracle something like doesn’t like normally at a point in time wasn’t discovered but a future point in time we discover a cure or reason…is no longer a miracle but because we were ignorant of how things work .. it was a miracle?
My question is the same direction but hope it clarifies it… possibly… is the definition that we are working with, we said it’s something that we ascribe to an event that science.. a miracle picks up where science leads off, is that a good definition?
So you are asking if a miracle is something that picks off where science can no longer explain…
Yes so we are in this situation where things become miracles until science explains them so miracles are allied with superstition eventually, my question is that a good definition of a miracle.
Funny thing is you did defined miracles, you said it was an interference with nature, I think that’s a much more sound definition.
I think through out the talk, you equate that with supernatural, I think it’s quite dangerous because then what’s supernatural? That also excludes everything that is natural (stuff that we can see). So I would say that every time a person comes to Christ a miracle, but then its not supernatural but its actually natural. I think the reason why you are struggling with science and it can’t explain a miracle and its because you equate that with supernatural. The fact that life exists in this universe I think thats a miracle even though its nature by definition but also a miracle..
Then everything’s a miracle
Then why is someone coming to Christ a miracle?
The edge you’re taking it’s risky point.
If God works in the natural world, he created this world but we call him supernatural, does the natural world have to be completely separated by the supernatural?
What is natural? — Yeah we are gonna have to define it if we keep going.
That’s a good point.
If life is a miracle as such, in itself, then basically everything — the fact that we understand each other speaking — then if everything is a miracle, then how do we define … what is a miracle? Somethings we can think about them and we can definitely say that science can explain it and people would say its not a miracle.. and there are somethings that science cannot explain and then you’d say its a miracle.
Wait, so is a miracle… have we brought it down to that its something out of the ordinary?
Then winning the lottery would be a miracle.
I think CS Lewis definition is good, but you misunderstood it. We are talking about an interference .. point is God can intervene through natural stuff but it still would be a miracle… then we get really tricky.
Someone coming to Christ is a miracle… why?
Is it the fact that we came to Christ a miracle or the fact that they had a transformed spirit a miracle?
I think thats a miracle…
No then how would you know because you can say that everything’s a miracle if someone coming to Christ because there’s not really a criteria aside from God is a miracle.
God says it’s impossible to be perfect without God.
It’s not supernatural right? That’s the hard thing. If a miracle coming to Christ is not supernatural .. but its a miracle… but if its not supernatural then there’s no supernatural intervention.
Perhaps supernatural is something like that can break the laws of physics… I don’t know…
Why my Dad is 18 he got cancer and he was going to die and he stopped taking medicine and they all given up upon him but he started getting better because he was getting prayed for. Not only he’s getting better but he’s in remission but he was told that he could never had kids cuz they couldn’t freeze sperm those days but he had 5 kids and he never had a checkup because believed God saved him and the cancer never came back not even once. Would you say that science can prove that one day?
Possibly the doctor was crap and he didn’t know a thing as well. Not saying that its its the case but saying its possible.
Imagine it was 200 years ago without electricity. Imagine trying to explain to someone then about electricity, don’t underestimate what science and do and discover. We’ve wiped up polio…
Not yet but pretty much.
I wouldn’t underestimate the ability of science.
We’re talking about miracles that happen nowadays and if we can class them as miracles. The ones we put our faith in primarily are the ones of Jesus. Do we think those are things that are beyond science can explain or do we think they are in a different category of divine intervention.
Yeah that was 2000 years ago and it was like touching someone with leprosy and it suddenly goes away, I think that’s amazing
There is things like magicians turning water into wine trick. Stuff that’s do-able.
I don’t think thats the point. i think we are completely missing the point, you don’t go through and dismiss this and that… in general. I’m a mathematician, the numbers don’t add up. If you look at the millions, I don’t think its relevant.
It sounded like (I might be wrong) you have to see miracles to have faith or else no amount of scrutiny would convince us …
I mentioned something about if lets say if we don’t believe in miracles at all but in the bible, a lot of things that happened in the bible e.g. the resurrection … if you don’t believe in it then why would I believe anything the bible has to say?
So you are going towards believing rather than seeing miracles?
If your friend tells you he saw something, you need some strong document.
Faith is something to do with trust that your friend won’t lie to you and if you have faith and believe that God won’t lie to you … he won’t..
But say if your friend.. if he thinks he’s a ghost.. even though he isn’t. Yet he just seriously believe he’s a ghost.. would you believe they saw a ghost when actually reality he didn’t see a ghost.
I don’t know is a legitimate answer..
I don’t know and I’ll do a lot of thinking about that.
Difference is the psychological integrity?
To be honest… if someone who usually believes in UFOs, ghosts.. etc. without questioning… a kind of person who’s susceptible to seeing this though normal…
I don’t think its relevant, you shouldn’t base your faith in what someone else says
My question is if it is possible to believe the friend and for me I don’t think so.
Jesus did miracles and they were verifiable… I’m a cynic when it comes to a lot of these things. But we are told to scrutinize it.
In terms of the one person who can have all sorts of reasons… a lot of these miracles are witnessed by several 100 people at the same time.
You need to look at the intention of the author… the intention is good… I’m talking about other accounts. Even though intention is fine, doesn’t mean it happens. So if we are looking at some document, we cannot say unless its definitely true.
You can literally say that for anything and say how do you know I exist
That’s a philosophical question…